RogueBasin talk:Community Portal/Archive 1

This is an archive of old discussions. To revive a discussion, copy it to the active talk page.

We need SPAMBOT protection!

The SPAMBOTs seem to attack this wiki every second day. Page locking is no solution as the most recent attacks have proven (the BOT just created new pages based on text strings found in the wiki it seems). What we need is a secure account registration process. Don't hand out new accounts to "people" who don't pass a "I am a real person"-test. The popular technical solution is require the user to enter a code that's displayed as an image file unreadable by machines. Another solution would to only hand out accounts to people who send an email to an adim telling him why they want one. --Copx 20:31, 13 Dec 2005 (CET)

Smaller Wikimedia Foundation wikis like Wikibooks have started doing this when you try to post new external links (and also, I think, to create accounts). Ask on their developers' list (Wikitech-l) for details. --Unforgettableid 03:32, 27 Feb 2006 (CET)

Sure... I got tired of deleting Spam... perhaps Dargod or the RogueLord can do something about it? I dont know if we need to modify mediawiki, as I dont recall it able to ensure human sign up... --Slash 00:28, 14 Dec 2005 (CET)

DarkGod, I think we must try to install this software into this mediawiki installation... http://www.ioerror.us/software/bad-behavior/installing-and-using-bad-behavior/on-mediawiki/ --Slash 14:19, 14 Dec 2005 (CET)

Or the features listed at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_Features --Unforgettableid 03:32, 27 Feb 2006 (CET)

I think we should lock down the wiki pending finding a proper solution. We can at least then clean up this current set of spam without fearing ZapM turning back into a bunch of Paris Hilton ads. --JeffLait 22:08, 16 Dec 2005 (CET)

How about moving to [| MoinMoin]? It has builtin global spam solution and is easily extensible (I could write a plugin for displaying roguelike screenshots, for example). There are migration scripts available. --TheSheep 22:06, 04 Jan 2006 (CET)

People are probably much more familiar with MediaWiki, though, since so many people have edited Wikipedia. They'll feel more free to edit MediaWiki if it works similarly. --Unforgettableid 03:32, 27 Feb 2006 (CET)

Can we add a link to this talk page on the main roguebasin navigation bar?

Or otherwise add a page expressly for the discussion of roguebasin. The BBS at http://peltkore.net/~szdev/boards gets no traffic. Best to keep discussion here.

Also, lots of updates recently! Very exciting, good work guys :-) -- User:Shedletsky

I agree, this is a good page for discussion. Perhaps:

The RogueBasin is a central knowledge-base for everything related to the Roguelike genre, as well as a detailed directory of Roguelike games. You can help! Go to the Community Portal Talk page to participate in the latest discussion.

or something similar. (The bold would become a link if pasted into the main page.)

Also, would you mind if I moved this new section towards the bottom? Chronological is usually the standard, and I had a bit of trouble noticing it here at the top :) [[User:M|–M^T]] 06:46, 20 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Image support

I thought it would be a good idea to start a RL Dev section where people could peruse and download free RL media resources, like tiles and sound files. I went ahead and created the catagory, then realized that I don't know how to post images to RogueBasin. I haven't noticed any others here, so maybe they are disabled?

My original plan was the upload the NetHack and Angband tilesets I have, along with a number of individual tiles I drew for my own game. Hopefully the repository would grow over time, so if you were writing a graphical RL and wanted a tile of X, you could just come get one.

I do not think RogueBasin should endeavour to host free media. I think it would be more effective it it just linked to the free media that does exist already. Two such links to start things off: http://www.reinerstileset.4players.de:1059/englisch.htm, and http://rltiles.sourceforge.net/. Note that the cannonical Angband tiles, the Adam Bolt set, are in limbo as far as permission is concerned as the author has disappeared without clarifying the intent. --JeffLait 05:39, 10 Sep 2005 (CEST)

File upload is in fact disabled : http://roguebasin.t-o-m-e.net/index.php/Special:Upload

Who can change this? Why isn't it enabled? If it's the cost of storage space/bandwidth I can host 50 megs (can a wiki's storage system be distributed across domains like that?) --User:John Shedletsky

Place to discuss Rogue Basin

It would be nice to have a place where we could talk about this site, discuss what you be done, etc. Any suggestions how it could be named? - Poulpy 03:29, 22 May 2005 (CEST)

Perhaps we could name it 'The roguebasin forum'? :p

see http://peltkore.net/~szdev/boards --Slash 22:42, 25 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Wikipedia Merge

I strongly disagree with the idea of merging with Wikipedia. RogueBasin is much more than an encyclopedia. I suggest that this item gets removed from the TO-DO list --Copx 13:52, 13 Jul 2005 (CEST)

Not to mention that the WikiPedia folks would probably remove it, as we are not really an encyclopedia and not within the scope of WikiPedia's concerns (preserving human knowledge ect ect) John Shedletsky

We could merge with Wikibooks though. We are within the scope of their wiki AFAIK. The benefits would be:

free hosting and administration
free spam protection (many people there help out by watching the Special:Recentchanges page and reverting spam, plus they have lots of people on their Special:Adminlist who can block spammers).

So maybe someone should change the TODO on RogueBasin:Community Portal to say "Maybe merge with Wikibooks?" instead.

What do you think? --Unforgettableid 03:39, 27 Feb 2006 (CET)

RogueBasin is nothing like a "textbook", not even remotely. It is supposed to be a general-purpose community site (see for example the previous reporting about the 7DRL contest, the news section etc.) such content does not fit in a "book", not even by the most liberal definition. --Copx 20:11, 27 Feb 2006 (CET)

I agree. Though were we ever to create some sort of book, or compilation, we might want to consider adding it to Wikibooks. [[User:M|–M^T]] 22:23, 17 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Reviews removal

I think we should remove the reviews entirely. --JeffLait 21:39, 25 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Why is everyone so into removing things from RogueBasin? Why not just let it grow naturally to address the interests of those who spend the time to edit it? John Shedletsky

I, for one, think that the removal of the spam was a good thing. Even if the spammers had spent the time to edit it. Pruning is an important part of developing this site in a healthy direction. I want this to be a useful resource, not a collection of half-implemented things. --JeffLait 16:54, 6 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Categories done wrong

I think the Categories page is done wrong. We have here roguelikes categorized by development state, alphabetically, by year, by theme, by evolutionary branch, and by special categories. All of these are useful, but the problem is that they are not correlated, i.e. not every roguelike appears in all lists it should. I think a much better solution would be a single table which lists all this information for each roguelike. (It should be possible to create a table somehow, right? Wikipedia has some tables.) I don't know much about wikis, but maybe it would be also possible to create a script that would e.g. sort the table according to one of properties. --R 19:47, 4 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I think the right answer is a more consistent use of the Category tag. That seems to auto-generate the relevant categories, rather than having to edit the master list every time. For example, POWDER has the Stable Game tag so shows up under Stable Games without the need to edit the list of the Stable Games and keep it alphabetical, etc. Thus, I'd rather see the existing Categories be rolled into that. For example, why do we have a master list of Fantasy, Sci-Fi, as *well* as a Futuristic Roguelike category? --JeffLait 16:50, 6 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Conventions

I've added a RogueBasin:Conventions page to help us avoid any future confusion. [[User:M|–M^T]] 07:09, 20 Sep 2005 (CEST)

So.... Image Support.

I wants it! Is there a reason why it is disabled?

Look how good the front page of http://gpwiki.org looks. RogueBasin could use a similar facelift. It would also be useful for screen shots of games, illustrations in articles, ect ect ect... --

We dont need to enable image support for that. As you can see many pages have screenshots or images that can be included just by linking them with HTML. I dont know why Image Upload is disabled as I haven't been able to contact DarkGod, but I dont see it as an inmediate necessity either.

--Slash 18:55, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)

What information is critical in describing a roguelike?

I've recently added a "gameinfo" template. The following code:

{{gameinfo| name = NetHack
|developer = [[The NetHack Dev Team]]
|theme = fantasy, some modern
|influences = [[Hack]]
|status = [[Stable]] 
|released = 1987
|updated = 3.4.3, on Month 1st, 2003
|licensing = [[Open source]]
|language = [[C]]
|platforms = Amiga, Atari, Linux, Mac, Msdos, OS/2, Windows, Windows CE
|interface = [[Graphical tiles]], [[ASCII]], [[Keyboard]], [[Mouse]] (limited)
|gamelength = average: ?, to-beat: weeks or years
|site = http://www.nethack.org/
}}
{{gameinfo| name = NetHack
|developer = [[The NetHack Dev Team]]
|theme = fantasy, some modern
|influences = [[Hack]]
|status = [[Stable]] 
|released = 1987
|updated = 3.4.3, on Month 1st, 2003
|licensing = [[Open source]]
|language = [[C]]
|platforms = Amiga, Atari, Linux, Mac, Msdos, OS/2, Windows, Windows CE
|interface = [[Graphical tiles]], [[ASCII]], [[Keyboard]], [[Mouse]] (limited)
|gamelength = average: ?, to-beat: weeks or years
|site = http://www.nethack.org/
}}

...will produce what is on the right. [See Template_talk:Gameinfo for the latest example]

What other important information should be included, and is something on the right unneccisary? Perhaps a field for the official website, descendants, and antecedent/influences/"based on"/etc? [[User:M|–M^T]] 03:16, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I suggest three additional fields: Link to Project Homepage, Is source code available (Y/N), and type of graphics (ASCII, tiles, 3d, 5d, haptic interface only, ect). I'm not entirely sure that the "Features" field should be in there - that seems better addressed in the actual project entry, but it's not a big deal. - Shedletsky

Added them as licensing, interface, and site. How's that? [[User:M|–M^T]] 04:41, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Yeah that's a good way to put it. [[User:Shedletsky|â€“John Shedletsky^Talk ]] 04:56, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Should genre be removed? Apart from, say, fantasy and futuristic, there isn't much there. [[User:M|–M^T]] 06:19, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I'll be removing the genre field due to non-informativeness. Any objections? [[User:M|–M^T]] 03:34, 22 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I think we should separate two types of availability. One is licensing/availability of source code. The other is licensing/availability of binaries. --JeffLait 03:14, 22 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Hmm, I see what you're getting at. I hadn't even thought of commercial roguelikes. Is there a way to combine the two? For example, a game that is open source (which can be any of the open source licenses) is almost always free. And a commercial game is almost always closed source. License will refer only to the current version's license. Any rare exceptions can be, well, crammed together into something like "open source, postcardware". Or am I not thinking of something? [[User:M|–M^T]] 03:34, 22 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I can't think of any RL that has different licensing terms for the binary vs. source code. [[User:Shedletsky|â€“John Shedletsky^Talk ]] 03:37, 22 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Well, most in-development roguelikes have free binaries, but the source code, even when it's published, is not free to use.--unsigned

I think theme (genre is usually "Roguelike", isn't it?) is useful for people, because "tell me what are SF roguelikes" is a FAQ on rgr.misc. Also theme is not just fantastic/futuristic, there are many kinds of fantasy (own serious fantasy world like ADOM, non-serious world like NetHack, Norse mythology like Castle of the Winds) and futuristic (cyberpunk, apocalyptic, ...) and others (like ChessRogue). To game description we could also consider adding game length (coffeebreak 0-1, short 1-3, medium 3-9, long 9-27, very long 27-inf hours) and parent (a former game that seems to have inspired given game, or even shares source). --R 13:56, 26 Sep 2005 (CEST)

"influences", "theme", and "length" are good then? I'll add them if there are no objections. If you do, or have better namings ("basedon", "playtime"?), then please say so, because it's a real bother to change them later on when they're in use. [[User:M|–M^T]] 20:34, 26 Sep 2005 (CEST)

What information is critical in describing a roguelike developer?

[...]maybe add a similar template for Roguelike Developers? --Kisielewicz 13:19, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

{{developerinfo}} should be alright? Apart from name and games made, what should be included? It should be alright if there isn't as much information as for a game. [[User:M|–M^T]] 15:58, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

My proposal:

Nick
Real Name
Nationality
Homepage
Games made
Projects
Languages

--Kisielewicz 17:48, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

{{developerinfo|name = Kornel Kisielewicz
|alias = Anubis
|nationality = Polish
|languages = [[FreePascal]]
|site = http://chaos.magma-net.pl/
|games = [[DoomRL]], [[DiabloRL]]
|projects = [[Carceri]], [[GenRogue]]
}}

The difference between games made and projects is in the development stage, correct? I think we should combine the two, and make no distinction based on development status, at least in the infobox. Does that sound alright? For now, there's what is on the right [[User:M|–M^T]] 20:35, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

The difference is simple -- if there is a playable game it's considered a "Game". If it's a development snapshot, testing version, rumor, then it's a Project. In my case, DoomRL and DiabloRL would be a game, and Carceri and GenRogue would be a Project. Another example, Joseph Hewitt -- Games : GearHead, DeadCold, Dungeon Monkey, Projects: GearHead 2. In my case, the alias is Anubis, for I posted under it for a long time ;-D --Kisielewicz 03:45, 22 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Alright, there we are. Anything else that we can think of? [[User:M|–M^T]] 03:36, 25 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Opinions, in or out?

I'm currently writing up something for Guild, and I'm finding it a bit of a pain to withhold suggestions or opinions. It would be really nice if we could set aside some sections for, say, suggestions or feedback, especially for games that are currently in the first stages of development. I don't think that their talk pages would be an appropriate place, since that seems more for editorial discussion... thoughts? [[User:M|–M^T]] 06:24, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Hmm. Maybe it's something that should be put in reviews? I don't know. It'd be nice to be able to state which points of a game I found exciting or tedious right on there, and then if someone disagrees they can state that right there as well. [[User:M|–M^T]] 06:28, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Maybe projects that want to solicit feedback should add a Feedback heading in the project entry itself, and people can edit that? [[User:Shedletsky|â€“John Shedletsky^Talk ]] 20:23, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I think that's a good way to go, but I've never heard of a Roguelike project that was not soliciting feedback. Maybe if as long as we find a record of the author asking for feedback, such as a thread from rgrd, we can add a feedback section, find some actual feedback, and also add our own. [[User:M|–M^T]] 20:44, 21 Sep 2005 (CEST)

I dont think that is a good way to go... I see the individual game articles as some kind of "Game sheet" that stores the information about the game itself in order to create some kind of non structured database. A link to a feedback section would be nice to me. (For example, for "CastlevaniaRL" an article named "CastlevaniaRL: Feedback" where people can put their much appreciated feedback in a talkpagesque way). --Slash 19:09, 22 Sep 2005 (CEST)

That's a pretty good idea [[User:Shedletsky|â€“John Shedletsky^Talk ]] 20:13, 22 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Yes, I agree with that. As long as we have a place to do it, and as long as that place isn't the talk page. [[User:M|–M^T]] 20:44, 22 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Feeds

Is there any way to customize the feeds? For example, to limit the number of entries?

--The Sheep 19:56, 26 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Ok, I found out how to limit the feed :)

--The Sheep 20:02, 26 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Interwiki map?

I'd like to be able to link to Wikipedia, Wikibooks, and StrategyWiki. Links like [[Wikipedia:SNES]] and [[w:en:SNES]] and [[StrategyWiki:NetHack]] don't seem to work however. Perhaps we should set up interwiki links. See: Interwiki and InterWiki map. --Unforgettableid 20:35, 8 May 2006 (CEST)

Log in to edit -> less conributions

Why not let users edit without logging in? They kind of expect that from Wikipedia, and it'll encourage more contributions. There are excellent anti-spam solutions available, such as the anti-URL spam wikibooks.org uses (it seems to work great), or you can just set up a Recent Changes patrol like the one on Wikipedia. Cheers, Unforgettableid 20:35, 8 May 2006 (CEST)

We have had problems with spam and they are very annoying to deal with; I dont think the current admin of the roguebasin (DarkGod) is got enough time to implement an antispam solution and roguebasin is not the kind of wiki to which anonimous contributors would write, as wikipedia is, in my opinion. --Slash 22:58, 8 May 2006 (CEST)

I don't object at all to the need to login to edit. I have noticed, however, that account creation seems to be entirely disabled? How do users create new accounts? Are they supposed to email someone, and if so, who? This must be documented somewhere in the wiki, preferablly on the Login page where they expect to see account creation information. --JeffLait 04:11, 17 Jul 2006 (CEST)

Yes, by now they must email me at java.koder@gmail.com to create an account; I know it is crappy, but it was the only way to fight spambots that could be easily implemented, I posted that on rgra, rgrm and rgrd, though I know new visitors may never notice that... this info was supposed to be on the create account page, but I think DarkGod couldnt change it. --Slash 18:02, 17 Jul 2006 (CEST)

Events listing in the community portal

The events listing in the community portal is __horribly__ out of date. If I can, I should have time on saturday to be able to update it. What information do we have to put on it? Anything particularly special? Or dare I suggest, is it worth removing it? Lochok 16:13, 24 May 2006 (CEST)

I also think it is worth removing events altogether. This section has to be updated when time arises and contributors have time at random intervals. However I would add at least second 7DRL contest if this page wasn't locked down. [[User:Ancient|â€“Michal Bielinski^Talk]] 22:53, 29 Jul 2006 (CEST)

Move to roguelikedevelopment.org

I have been reading this wiki longer, but I only started editing after the move from t-o-m-e.net to roguelikedevelopment.org. So far I noticed that create an account works (instead of not telling me how to create an account) and that there is a new logo. What else should happen? Now that I actually edit here, I do not want it to become unusable like it was before. Some ideas:

Upgrade to PHP 5.x - Special:Version reports PHP 4.4.2RC2-dev, but I hear that MediaWiki 1.7 requires PHP 5.
Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.7.x - Manual:Upgrading to 1.7 ... but 1.3.9 is so ancient that it might not work. Still if we can reach 1.7.x (or anything newer than 1.3.9) that should improve security and allow newer extensions.
Get spam blacklist - SpamBlacklist extension - From my experience, this kills almost every spam. It blocks links to spam sites. I think this is what the rgrd people were discussing.

Any other ideas? What would work, what would not? --Kernigh 07:57, 9 Aug 2006 (CEST)

I will begin by moving Rogue Basin to Media Wiki 1.6.8 as the hosting currently doesn't have PHP 5.x installed. I think 1.6.8 will be sufficient for now as the security is greatly increased compared to 1.3.9. --Bjorn

Good luck with the upgrade! --Kernigh 19:11, 9 Aug 2006 (CEST)

please upgrade

Is there anything that prevents us from upgrading or applying a patch that asks the user to complete a CAPTCHA, or implements other anti-spam features? [[User:M|–M^T]] 09:06, 16 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Articles

I've compiled the Articles page. The category system might serve better for when we have a lot of content, but right now it seems hard to navigate and somewhat scattered. I think that a single page is much easier to use. Please add to it missing or new articles. [[User:M|–M^T]] 12:04, 17 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Organization

I think that some of the organization is confusing. I propose the following layout:

Articles (See Articles for expanded. Categories should reflect that listing.)

Development [...]
Design [...]
Implementation [...]
Game reviews

(additional article categories:)

Editable articles (will have 'original by' attribution as in Monster attacks)
Locked articles (will have a message stating that the original author would not like the article edited)

Games (Categories...)

Talkie-talkie projects
Unstable games (merge of alpha/beta games. Any game that isn't finished.)
Stable games (games that are "finished", as far as being fully playable. Includes 7DRLs and Major roguelikes as subcategories.)
7DRLs (Stable games that are 7DRLs)
Major roguelikes (Stable games that are well-known)

(an additional category:)

Defunct projects (any project that is dead, regardless of completedness)
Handheld roguelikes (any project or roguelike for cell phones or other handheld defices)
Roguelike engines (any project that includes or is a roguelike engine)

(by similarity:)

Hacklikes (messagebox stating "this game is a Hacklike")
Bandlikes (messagebox stating "this game is a Bandlike")
- Angband variants (messagebox stating "this game is an Angband variant")

Listings (such as Monster attacks, Preferred Key Controls - also to be included in Articles as bold entries)

Definitions (Explanations of what a term means, and relevant information. Category:Features includes many pages which are just explanations of what a term means.)

Navigation pages shouldn't be categorized, unless they relate to a certain category (e.g. list of roguelikes and roguelike games).

As it is, many games are placed under 4 different categories. Major roguelikes are all stable, and so are all 7DRLs (that aren't in progress - if they are, I doubt the author would take the time to write an article here) - no need to add them under "stable" and "major roguelikes"/"7DRLs" (and "roguelike games" and etc.). At the very most, you'd have 3: development status, hacklike or bandlike, and if it's defunct/an engine/handheld. This means that all games under Category:Roguelike games should be subcategorized. If you want a list of all roguelikes, one exists.

I propose that all categorization is done only through templates (for example, adding Template:Gameinfo automatically adds that page to Category:Roguelike games). This would eliminate stray categories that have a single article under them (I've put category:angband into category:delete). There's no need to give every article on this site a category. It would also eliminate mis-categorized pages (category:roguelike games should have a see also for pages like List of handheld roguelikes etc., but they shouldn't be classified as roguelike games.) By including, for example, {{defunct}}, a box that states "This game or project is defunct" would be displayed on the right, and the page would be added to category:defunct projects. I'll implement the necissary templates if noone objects. [[User:M|–M^T]] 01:47, 18 Sep 2006 (CEST)

I like most of your proposals. I am not sure about the idea of merging alpha and beta, many authors seem to like to be able to make that distinction. I would also be very careful to avoid the word finished with respect to stable games.--JeffLait 05:48, 18 Sep 2006 (CEST)

I'll make two seperate templates for alpha and beta. | Perhaps 'finishable' is the proper term. [[User:M|–M^T]] 21:16, 18 Sep 2006 (CEST)

"Articles in category "Roguelike games"" is the place where I - as a user - would look for a list of all games (independent of development status) and Warp Rogue does not show up there without this category. --Copx (moved from my page [[User:M|–M^T]])

Categories are typically used for navigation. I start at the very top with a something in mind, and work my way down. At the very top we might have a category called "main" or "all" or "information", or whatever. Yes, every article is "all" or "information", and I may expect to find every page of information on this wiki under that main category, but that doesn't mean that we should put our 500~ pages under that category. Same for the roguelike games category. A list of all roguelike games is much more suited to be, well, a list of all roguelike games. Now, if we did want all games to be placed under 'roguelike games', all we'd have to do is add the words [[:category:roguelike games]] to the relevant templates, which appear on (ideally) all games (not just yours), and they would all be added to that category. [[User:M|–M^T]] 01:37, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Finished categorization of games. The remaining pages in that category should be merged (do ports deserve their own pages?) and deleted or categorized in some way. [[User:M|–M^T]] 04:30, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

I think you can safely merge all the NetHack ports into NetHack. --Kisielewicz 04:34, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Ok, done. I've merged a lot of small articles or navigation pages in the interests of keeping it simple. [[User:M|–M^T]] 07:16, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Graphical Map Template

Looking at the Wikipedia's Chess Template got me thinking whether articles describing dungeon generation and FOV could use something similar to display a graphical map instead of ASCII art.

Something like:

{{dungeon
|#|#|#|#|#|#|#|#|
|#|.|.|.|.|.|.|#|
|#|.|#|@|.|#|#|#|
|#|#|#|.|.|.|.|+|
|#|.|.|.|.|.|.|#|
|#|#|#|#|#|#|#|#|
}}

I'm new here, so I'd like my first real contributions to go smoothly. Would anyone object if I went ahead and implemented this?

--Bruno 01:44, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Since this wiki is rather small, all good contributions are welcome, and all controversial contributions would only bring more activity to the wiki, and so are also welcome. As for the template, the easiest way is to just use <pre></pre> tags, or indent the map - unless you have graphical tiles in mind, which tend to vary (and screenshots are easier). If you're interested in templates and have the time, here's a problem: the single original template is now split based on dev. status. However, there are other minor... attributes: some games have category:horror added to them, etc. You may have noticed that I've added some templates like "this game is an angband variant" and "this game is a coffeebreak roguelike" (which is actually an incomplete replacement for the "game length" attribute). We don't want to say "this is a fantasy roguelike" + "this is a horror roguelike" + "this is a coffeebreak roguelike" etc. on many games. So is there a simple way to do this categorization with templates, or will users have to unreliably just add the categories themselves? [[User:M|–M^T]] 02:31, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

If I understand your problem correctly, you should just be able to add [[:Category:Coffeebreak roguelikes]] or [[:Category:Horror roguelikes]] to the appropriate templates so that the pages including them will be automatically included in those categories. As for the proposed dungeon template, yes it would be graphical. It would not be intended as a "screenshot" to preview a game, but would be used to graphically demonstrate map-related algorithms. --Bruno 03:03, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Ah, yes. Sure, why not? - but do make sure that it's square and perhaps of a large (or a variety of) sizes. Have a look at how it would be used in the algorithm pages, if you havn't already. | I've added those categories. The problem is that we don't want "this game was developed by X" "this game was released in 2003" etc. - we just want to use a regular template, but if someone enters "fantasy, horror" for "|theme=", it adds the game to those relevant categories. [[User:M|–M^T]] 03:58, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Locked pages

...are annoying. Here's what I'd like to have changed: (hit the edit button for a better view)

The RogueBasin is a central knowledge-base for everything related to the Roguelike genre, as well as a detailed directory of Roguelike games.

Articles · Games · Community · Links

[...]

Of course, the best way to understand what a Roguelike is is to download and play one.

[...] The following may help you find out more:

[...] If you have some ideas for a new Roguelike and would like to give development a go (or are already a seasoned developer) the RogueBasin is here to help you expand the Roguelike genre. A complete list of articles is available, but here are some to get you started:

[add this title under the current titles:]

==Contribute==

One of the easiest ways to contribute is to add your name to the RGRD Wiki Project. Simply post a message on rgrd stating that you'd like to participate, and what you agree to. [Alternatively, send an email to [if someone wants to get these?]. ] If one of us happens to see a relevant post by you, we'll upload it to this wiki as an article.

If you'd like to contribute to RogueBasin directly, [blah blah blah how to set up an account]. Feel very free to edit! However, changes to navigation, categorization, or the templates (since they affect many pages) should first be discussed on the Community portal. We especially need more information added to the games pages and the lists - if you're a developer, consider updating your game's page, and making sure that it (and you) are included in the relevant lists.

Redirect the community portal page to here (it's now fully redundant to the main page). Redirect the main page talk to here, move its contents to near the top of this page. That should encourage people to post something here, and then go on to contributing. [[User:M|–M^T]] 07:51, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

The problem is that this might destroy the purpose of why they are locked in the first place :P (Spam). Okay, I'll unlock them, and you'll set up the redirects. --Kisielewicz 12:19, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

They now redirect, and may be re-locked. Could you (or anyone who can) add my above changes to the main page? [[User:M|–M^T]] 22:34, 21 Sep 2006 (CEST)

We'll try to unlock the main page too. Alarm me if spam or vandalism occurs. --Kisielewicz 19:02, 23 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Standardization

'Roguelikes' or 'roguelike games'? 'Projects' or 'games' (as in beta projects/stable games)? And other issues of standardized naming. I prefer not using 'projects', favoring 'games' and 'engines'. To be consistant, I would call the games category 'games', since roguelike is the only type we have, and because I don't want 'stable roguelike games', which would be the natural subcategory. [[User:M|–M^T]] 00:53, 24 Sep 2006 (CEST)

Aye, I think we need a standard way of saying either 'roguelikes' or 'roguelike games', just to be consistent. 'Roguelikes' would be my preferred choice, because it's shorter and I don't think the 'games' part is necessary.
I think the idea with 'projects'/'games' is that while the roguelike is in development it is not complete and shouldn't be considered as a game yet, so it is a project. Something needs to be done about 'defunct games' though. It's referred to as 'defunct games' in places and 'defunct projects' in some places. Maybe everything could be renamed to things like 'Beta roguelikes', 'Stable roguelikes', 'Defunct roguelikes', etc.
I think it is a rather pedantic issue to try to separate 'projects' from 'games'. I think we should just use 'games' or 'roguelikes' everywhere. --JeffLait 17:37, 7 Dec 2006 (CET)
Also, this page is getting long, anyone mind if I archive some of the comments?

Icey 18:48, 30 Sep 2006 (CEST)

'Roguelike games' is redundant, IMO. Stick with 'Roguelikes'.
I agree. Alpha projects are the beginnings of a roguelike, Beta projects are playable versions of the game that are still incomplete, Defunct projects are ones that got left off somewhere between alpha and beta, and Stable games are the ones that are basically done and are just fixing bugs. Also, about Defunct games vs. projects...defunct games are games that are complete but forgotten about and rarely played. Defunct projects are defined in my first sentence. And no, I don't think we should use the generic term 'roguelike' when referring to these. There's a big enough difference between a game and a project that the wording is important.
Go for it. A lot of the early stuff is irrelevant now anyway.

Also, here's another idea I have for naming. How about if we renamed "Talkie-talkie projects" to "Shockfrost projects"?

[[User:Gamer 2k4|Gamer_2k4^Talk]] 01:40, 30 Oct 2006 (CET)

I'm not keen on that idea. I don't know much about Roguelikes, but I've never heard of Shockfrost and never heard anyone use it in refering to a project. Is Shockfrost a roguelike? I don't know. Also, you don't give a reason for changing the name, so my vote would be for no. Icey 21:28, 30 Oct 2006 (CET)

Shockfrost was a guy who entered r.g.r.d. guns blazing and had a lot of ideas for a game he never made. He dissapeared mysteriously in the shadows.--Slash 20:36, 31 Oct 2006 (CET)

I understand now, thanks for the explanation Slash. Icey 23:03, 31 Oct 2006 (CET)

I vote for a 'no', it is just unfair to the projects ;) shockfrost games are born dead, while ours may see the light someday soon! --Slash 20:36, 31 Oct 2006 (CET)

Here's a few alternative names:

* Discussed Projects (doesn't imply there is one person working on it, so probably a bad choice)

* Unreleased Projects (hmm kinda implies something has been made, so probably bad as well)

* Planned Projects (oooh alliteration and it sounds positive, without implying there is something created)

* Outlined Projects (similar to above)

* Pre-alpha Projects (also sounds positive, implies it is starting the journey along the development stage)

* Couldn't Really Appear Projects (well, maybe not)

Icey 23:03, 31 Oct 2006 (CET)

I also say 'no', it is an in-joke that is too obscure. My suggestion for a proper title would be 'Vapourware'. Yes, it is negative, but IMO it should be negative. I don't see why we should encourage the advertisment of unreleased, possibly unstarted, projects. The morale of the ShockFrost episode should be that vapourware has a strong advantage over real games in publicity. They are not constrained by mundanities of practicality or gameplay. I'm content with Talkie-Talkie, but I am opposed at making it any more positive. --JeffLait 17:38, 7 Dec 2006 (CET)

Render Errors in IE7

Just a heads up, this wiki looks pretty ratty in IE7. There's some formatting issues. I personally have no patience for rendering differences between browsers, its a real pain in the ass.

DarkGod Use a real browser? ;>

The software used to run this wiki, MediaWiki was created by Wikimedia, and being incompatible with all legitimate software (such as IE7) is a design goal of all Wikimedia software, MediaWiki especially. Nothing to do but deal with it... ^^; Almafeta 00:34, 7 Dec 2006 (CET)

Adding more info

I was thinking about making some contributions to this wiki -- creating articles about various unrepresented roguelikes, filling out categories, perhaps putting one or two 'Theories of Roguelike Design' in my userspace, etc. I just wanted to ask for permission before I made any major edits, especially if there's already a set 'style guide' for this wiki that I should be cogniscant of... ^^; Almafeta 00:34, 7 Dec 2006 (CET)

Hi Almafeta, welcome to the RogueBasin! I'm not an administrator or anything like that, but I think the general consensus is that all edits are welcome. People can always revert or improve anything, so don't worry about making any large or controversial edits. Icey 14:48, 7 Dec 2006 (CET)

New Roguelike based on R O Software DND

Hi, I'm a C/C++ programmer who loves roguelikes. I have created a text only and a DirectX 9.0c isometric tile based game called "The Valley of Neustria". It is loosely based on R O Software's DND game (does anyone remember that?) Hope it still qualifies as a roguelike. I want to attach screenshots, but can't figure out how.

You could upload it to ImageShack, and post it here afterwards. Do you have the game uploaded anywhere? It'd probably be easier to rate it's roguelikeness by playing it. Also, you've posted this in the archive for some reason. Colonp 06:51, 10 October 2007 (CEST) - oh and you can sign your "posts" with 4 tildes (~)

Remove the news?

I was wondering if it is a good idea to keep the news box on the main page. My thoughts:

We have three main news sites: RGRA, Temple of the Roguelike and the RogueBasin. That's a lot of duplicating.
I feel that the RGRA and Temple of the Roguelike are way more suited to displaying news. I see the RogueBasin as a resource of articles, guides and information about roguelikes.
The news box could be used to display other things. Such as new articles here, articles that we would like to improve and featured roguelikes.

What do people think? Icey 14:45, 27 May 2007 (CEST)

I agree, both RGRA and TotR seem better places for sources of news (But saying that I do have TotR as a Live Bookmark in Firefox) although I have no problem having a smaller box with the last couple of items. I'd sooner see the space taken with new articles, articles for improvement and featured roguelikes as suggested. -- Pucechan 01:18, 28 May 2007 (CEST)

RGRA and Temple are moderated, which means the news don't appear ASAP. For example both of these mediums haven't covered The Sewer Massacre 1.0 yet (and not for my lack of trying ;)). The main principle behind news is that they are new. A day later is already old news. Imagine if JADE is released, and the news don't appear anywhere for a day. Wiki solves this problem perfectly. Grue 23:09, 28 May 2007 (CEST)

That's one of the cons of a moderated media :) also, RGRA is moderated, but moderation commonly takes less than 1 hour in my Experience --Slash 16:35, 4 Jun 2007 (CEST)

That is a good point, I hadn't really thought about the moderation aspect. Perhaps having a slightly different main page design would accommodate having sections for articles and featured items? Pucechan 18:36, 29 May 2007 (CEST)

I've made a quick mockup of an idea, so colours and content (especially the top-right links) are just placeholders, this uses the fairly "traditional" block wiki format. The content is just copy-pasted but you get the idea. The news would be for each month (probably in a smaller font). See it here User:Pucechan/MainIdea. What do people think?

I like it a lot. I've expanded the idea a bit: User:Icey/MainIdea. It's more wikipedia-like, has a little tag line so people know what the RogueBasin is, added the links to the top, added a featured article section, added a bit of colour and changes a few other things. Icey 02:12, 2 Jun 2007 (CEST)

I like the changes you've made, the little splash of colour helps. I prefer your simple set of links rather than my bundle (I didn't really sort them in any way but your way is much nicer). I really like it. Pucechan 11:19, 2 Jun 2007 (CEST)

Thanks Pucechan. Let's wait a few days to see if anyone else would like to improve/approve it and then decide what to do from there. Icey 13:19, 3 Jun 2007 (CEST)

I like it a lot too... I have always thought roguebasin needs a better front page... perhaps changing "Current news" for "News for June 2007"?

Also, it is pretty wordy, some images may help.. probably :P

Thanks! --Slash 16:35, 4 Jun 2007 (CEST)

Images would be good, but uploading images is disabled :P A little cropped screenshot of a roguelike would be nice to go with the description. Like this or this. Icey 20:14, 7 Jun 2007 (CEST)

I have enabled uploads for a trial period. Bjorn 09:50, 3 Jul 2007 (CEST)

External community links

One thing I think is missing from the main page is a list of external community links. The existing Roguelike_Links doesn't have Temple of the Roguelike, @ Play and other current resources like forums for various roguelike games listed (and dare I say it Ascii Dreams ;) )

Are people happy for me to tidy up the Links section, to include the above, a 'Press' section within Links for listing where external media have talked about roguelike games, and a Forums section within Links for listing the various game specific web forums such as the Angband forums, Angband variant web forums and others (Live Journal, other variants and so on)? I'd like to see more ways of people getting in touch with fellow roguelike players/developers listed somewhere convenient...

That's an excellent idea. Perhaps we could use Links as a comprehensive list and then do a cut down version for the main page?

Perhaps the Links page could have a Roguelike Blog section (or a name like that) for your site and others like [1] [2]

Icey 18:52, 5 September 2007 (CEST)

THIS IS NOT A GAME ANNOUNCEMENT PAGE

Don't post game announcements here, there are other pages for that. Stu (I forgot to sign my edit..)

Probably would have been a little nicer and a whole lot more helpful to give a link to the appropriate location and to not all-caps/scream the header, especially since the Help section is completely blank (the most important part of any wiki that wants new contributors and knowledgeable editors), and the main Community Portal page just redirects straight here, making it totally useless as well to direct such notices to their appropriate location. Personally, I can't find a page that really matches what Caeonosphere appears to have been looking for. News seems to be the closest thing, but not really much of an announcement page for game developers so that they can get feedback. The site is a bit of a mess organizationally. Unfortunately, because of this, errant notices such as the one that you deleted are to be expected. Kiefer 13:44, 15 May 2008 (CEST)

You seem to confuse the idea of a wiki vs a forum. This is not a place to post and get feedback and comments and criticisms. Thats what rec.games.roguelike.development or RogueTemple is for. Game releases go on the News page, preferably linking to your game info page, but that is not required. RogueTemple also does game announcements, and takes comments in return on its front page and forums. Stu 14:54, 15 May 2008 (CEST)

I think it's pretty clear that I'm not confusing anything. I didn't say that the announcement was correctly placed. In fact, I described it as an "errant notice." However, a Community Portal often does include a spot for the wiki's community to get together and discuss things that relate to the subject of the wiki. Sometimes that involves requests for feedback like the one you deleted. I'm guessing that Caeonosphere put the request in the most likely place he thought it should go, since (once again) there was no main Community Portal page to direct him.

I think instead that it's pretty clear that my point was: You didn't treat the user with the respect that they deserved. You should have guided them in the right direction, instead of assuming that they should already know what to do. (But, once again, how should they know?) Instead of helping, you deleted their message, added a header that shouts at the user should they return, and then said that "there are other pages for that" without leaving even a clue as to what that might mean. And, apparently from what you just wrote in your reply, there aren't other pages for that here - the developer would have to go someplace else entirely. (A user can't even ask an admin for guidance or help, as there isn't a list of sysops posted on the Main Page from which to get help!)

It's a matter of treating the users with respect, and helping them out instead of essentially saying "bugger off." Kiefer 07:35, 16 May 2008 (CEST)

I agree, I was an arse, and after looking around it really isn't very clear where to go or what to do. I tried to edit the help page but dont have rights to do so. I think the front page needs a revamp to make things clearer. It is too cluttered. I added a little blurb to the top of the community page that might help. I also added the two games I deleted to the News page. Stu 14:21, 16 May 2008 (CEST)

You da man! My flying monkeys of death have been recalled and sun is shining again across the land. So, who do we have to bribe to get the help pages started and a non-redirecting Community Portal page created? I've worked on similar elsewhere, but everything is protected, and I don't really know what the "vision" of the site is. Ah well. Kiefer 17:54, 16 May 2008 (CEST)

I get an SQL error if I try to unprotect those pages. Thus, I've gone with the simpler answer of redirecting both to user-editable pages. I really don't know what a community portal should consist of, so left that page blank with a link back to this talk. The Help page I spliced together from existing stuff. Please let me know if there are other needs. --JeffLait 18:02, 28 July 2008 (CEST)

Spambots

There was a small spambot attack recently, dunno how they overrid the spam protection (what is the current spam protection)? I had no luck blocking them via the sysop special pages. Is there any way to delete user accounts?

--Slash 01:08, 12 Apr 2007 (CEST)

I think it may be useful to update MediaWiki software to the latest version. The one that's currently installed is so old, the mind boggles. The current version has captchas and other stuff, and it's much easier to revert vandalism. Grue 10:23, 12 Apr 2007 (CEST)

IIRC Bj????rn set up the latest version when the server translation was performed? Also, this is plain vandalism, not even spam (deleting '+' and everything after a '&', what use would that have? --Slash 17:19, 12 Apr 2007 (CEST)

It can't be the latest version. For example when you look at the diff between two revisions, there's no link to edit the revision. This feature was in Wikipedia since I joined it, probably, and that was very long time ago. So, to revert vandalism one has to click three times instead of two, pretty annoying. I don't know, maybe it's configured incorrectly, but it definitely looks very outdated. Grue 10:52, 13 Apr 2007 (CEST)

It's definitely an old version, the Special:Version page shows as using version 1.3.9 (The 1.3.x line was last updated in November 2005). The newest release is 1.10.0 although most modern versions of MediaWiki require PHP5 though (since version 1.7). The latest version that still supports PHP4 is 1.6.10 available here. 1.6.10 was released on 20th February 2007. -- Pucechan 01:18, 28 May 2007 (CEST)

THe Wiki is currently running MediaWiki 1.6.10. Hopefully we won't see any more spam attacks. -- Bjorn 09:50 3 Jul 2007

There was another spammer, although it could be a person doing it, rather than a bot. It was this account doing it, and this was was what he did.

Here we go again, looks like the spambots are returning? Three new pages filled with.. something. Here, here and here, created by three (new?) users in a short succession. Are there any anti-spambot guidelines somewhere, since I'm not sure of what to do, except for reporting? Solarnus 23:48, 8 January 2009 (CET)

Wonder if there is any way we can give rights to some users to approve new users so we dont have these spambots sign up, or we need to modify the captcha code to stop this crap. Stu 14:31, 12 January 2009 (CET)

I would suggest try giving a selected few, trusted users the rights to approve new users. The use of CAPTCHAs is kinda useless as of today (well, except for scaring off scriptkiddies), since it's an out of date "security measure" and there's some various techniques to bypass it. It's also a problem for ie, visual impaired people having trouble reading the characters (more info over at wikipedia, for those of you not being convinced it's a crappy technology..). Solarnus 15:50, 23 January 2009 (CET)

RGRD Wiki Project

I see this hasn't had any new names added since August 2008. As such perhaps it shouldn't be so prominent in the Contribute section. Maybe ...

=Contribute= If you'd like to contribute to RogueBasin, simply create an account and log in. Feel very free to edit! We especially need more information added to the games pages and the lists - if you're a developer, consider updating your game's page, and making sure that it (and you) are included in the relevant lists.

If you're an experienced developer, consider writing articles about creating Roguelikes. There are many people new to Roguelike development, and they often need help. It's especially helpful to write articles about problems you have experienced yourself. Also you can add your name to the RGRD Wiki Project (directly, or by posting a message on rgrd saying how you want to participate). If someone sees a relevant post by you, they'll upload it to this wiki as an article.

PaulBlay

I think this will be fine. You can go ahead and change it if you want. Nathan Stoddard 23:27, 12 April 2009 (CEST)

New main page

I like the appearance of the new main page :) --Slash 05:32, 13 April 2009 (CEST)

I like it too, nice work! I'd like the contribute part to be blue though, User:Colonp/maintest.. Not perfect right now. Colonp 04:17, 17 April 2009 (CEST)

STATUS in game templates

A number of games have |status= lines in the info box, but it does not display anything on the screen. The content is generally a duplicate of the type indicated by the template name (e.g. game-beta is status Beta, etc.)

Are these lines left over from an earlier set of templates? Can the STATUS information safely be called redundant and removed? PaulBlay

Yes, it can be safely thrown away if not done yet. It is a leftover from old Template:Gameinfo template. â€“Michal Bielinski^Talk 11:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Featured game section?

How about a 'featured game' section (bottom left of main page). Suggested content: Short description, mini-review, link to RogueBasin page and main review (if present). I'd suggest choosing games that have been updated in the last month and are at least 'beta'. PaulBlay

Well, I've done one. Maybe someone will replace it with a different game in a week or two. PaulBlay

Looks great! I actually have a C64 in a joystick system that has this game on it. elig

Thanks to Ido for putting up a new featured roguelike. I was just thinking it was about time I got around to doing that ;-) PaulBlay

An archive of former featured roguelikes would be nice. Not quite sure how the layout of such a page should be though. Maybe just make seperate pages for each and add category:featured.. Colonp 23:05, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

ColorP: I've created Category:Featured Roguelikes with a backlog of featured roguelikes by date, and attached that category to all roguelikes that have been featured. If you'd like to see the previous featured roguelike pages, take look at the history of Featured roguelike. Cheers! Nolithius 04:44, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't think of looking at the history.. Nice work! I've added a link to the category on the front page. Colonp 16:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Large amount of new accounts?

It seems a large number of new accounts have been created today (12 September 2010). All these accounts seem to have no edits. Does anyone know about this? It looks strange. --Linlem 19:25, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks like the start of a spambot invasion. Personally I would remove all these. (Note how they start to look like normal usenames, with some additional random chars at the end).--Soyweiser 20:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the user creation log, it seems that usernames of that format have been created since 6 August. Therefore, this appears to be a planned invasion, so I think we'll have to act quickly to get rid of the accounts (I predict it will happen around October, because the first account was made on 6/7/8 August, then 2/3/11/12 September). The order of the text in the names seems to be: randomly generated username (possibly a fantasy random name generator?), then 4-11 random characters. Most of these accounts are easy to spot, because their contribs link is red in the log. --Linlem 19:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

To me it looks more like ongoing invasion. These accounts do not make much spam because captcha seems to prevent it most of the time. Still it would not hurt to delete them.

â€“Michal Bielinski^Talk 15:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

It appears that the spammers have started making new pages. Fortunately Nolithius has deleted these so far. Deleting these spam accounts and blocking the IP of those accounts is a good idea right now. --Linlem 19:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm working on getting Bureaucrat access so that I can administer users and eradicate the spammers. For now, I'll keep deleting their posts as they pop up. Nolithius 20:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)